JoWhittemore Ladies and gentlemen, tonight's #MGLitchat is ON!! My lovely cohost @rachelgrinti and I will be talking about foreshadowing. #mglitchat -9:00 PM Dec 1st, 2011
rachelgrinti Welcome everyone! #mglitchat -9:01 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @JoWhittemore I totally saw that tweet coming. #hahaha #MGlitchat -9:01 PM Dec 1st, 2011
LaurelSnyder hey, all! #mglitchat -9:01 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore First of all, let's talk about what constitutes effective foreshadowing... #mglitchat -9:02 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @elissacruz Oh, you slay me!! :-) #mglitchat -9:02 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KDuBayGillis @LaurelSnyder Hi!!! #mglitchat -9:02 PM Dec 1st, 2011
kurtisscaletta What's the topic? #mglitchat -9:02 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore Foreshadowing requires consistency, subtlety and logic. #mglitchat -9:02 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @LaurelSnyder Hey, you!! #mglitchat -9:02 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @JoWhittemore I'm here all night. #takeabow ;) #MGlitchat -9:03 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KDuBayGillis @elissacruz @JoWhittemore Oh tonight is going to be full of comedy as well as wisdom! #mglitchat -9:03 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @kurtisscaletta Tonight's topic: foreshadowing. #MGlitchat -9:03 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @KDuBayGillis I am to please....er, annoy. Whatever. ;) #MGlitchat -9:03 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore Consistency: It's not good foreshadowing if your hint is a one-off. Implant the notion in the reader's mind multiple times. #mglitchat -9:03 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore Subtlety: It's not good foreshadowing if the hint is too obvious. People like a little bit of a surprise ending. #mglitchat -9:05 PM Dec 1st, 2011
Mike_Jung Foreshadowing requires enough weight (intellectual/emotional/visual/etc) to resonate later in the story. Can't be forgettable. #mglitchat -9:05 PM Dec 1st, 2011
AniProf One MG SciFi author joining the frey! #mglitchat -9:05 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin For writers, foreshadowing has to happen during revision. IMO. #ForMeAnyway #mglitchat -9:05 PM Dec 1st, 2011
rachelgrinti Laying the groundwork with things that tie together even if you don't realize until later. But def. need to be memorable hints. #MGlitchat -9:06 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @elissacruz Uh, I mean AIM to please (or annoy). #typo #MGlitchat -9:06 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore Logic: It's not good foreshadowing if there's no depth, detail, or rational reason for it. This ties into subtlety. #mglitchat -9:06 PM Dec 1st, 2011
rachelgrinti @KristineAsselin Ha ha, for me as well. I'm not good at thinking of all of that up front. #MGlitchat -9:06 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore And foreshadowing can happen at a subconscious level (which I LOVE). You can set yourself up for greatness without even knowing! #mglitchat -9:07 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin @rachelgrinti Glad I'm not the only one! LOL. #mglitchat -9:07 PM Dec 1st, 2011
kellybarnhill Oh, hey, #mglitchat! Foreshadowing, eh? -9:07 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin RT @JoWhittemore: foreshadowing can happen at a subconscious level. You can set yourself up for greatness without even knowing! #mglitchat -9:07 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore Yes, this-->RT @Mike_Jung: Foreshadowing requires enough weight (intellectual/emotional/visual/etc) to resonate later in story. #mglitchat -9:08 PM Dec 1st, 2011
AniProf Foreshadowing? Oh, I saw that one coming. #mglitchat -9:08 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @AniProf Welcome! #MGlitchat -9:08 PM Dec 1st, 2011
kellybarnhill I tell my students this: a book is't a book. It is a conversation of whispers, nudges, clues. Foreshadowing is a kind of whisper. #mglitchat -9:09 PM Dec 1st, 2011
Mike_Jung @JoWhittemore Very cool when it happens organically! Not that it's happened for me that way (yet), but a guy can dream, right? #mglitchat -9:09 PM Dec 1st, 2011
annenesbet RT @Mike_Jung: Foreshadowing requires enough weight (intellectual/emotional/visual/etc) to resonate later in the story. Can't be forgettable. #mglitchat -9:09 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @kellybarnhill I like that! #mglitchat -9:09 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KDuBayGillis @kellybarnhill Love! RT: a book is't a book. It is a conversation of whispers, nudges, clues. Foreshadowing is a kind of whisper. #mglitchat -9:10 PM Dec 1st, 2011
AniProf If you know where your story will end up, then foreshadowing comes automatically. How strong it is depends on writing style. #mglitchat -9:10 PM Dec 1st, 2011
sarazarr RT @JoWhittemore: And foreshadowing can happen at a subconscious level (which I LOVE). You can set yourself up for greatness without even knowing! #mglitchat -9:10 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @Mike_Jung I'll bet it's happened for you. You just don't realize it! We pull solutions from our circumstances. FORESHADOWING! #mglitchat -9:10 PM Dec 1st, 2011
kellybarnhill The point is the beginning always "talks" to the end, and certain moments are set to resonate with the moments before and after. #mglitchat -9:10 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @Mike_Jung @JoWhittemore For me, the only way foreshadowing works effectively is if it's organic (aka I'm not good at it yet). #MGlitchat -9:11 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin Lovely thought!! RT @kellybarnhill: A book is a conversation of whispers, nudges, clues. Foreshadowing is a kind of whisper. #mglitchat -9:11 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore When you create a character and give them a certain personality, that's already foreshadowing how they'll react to stimuli. #mglitchat -9:11 PM Dec 1st, 2011
kellybarnhill It's like music: the theme that you hear at the begininning is sure to echo later on. Sometimes slant, or inside out. #mglitchat -9:11 PM Dec 1st, 2011
AniProf @kellybarnhill So true! Again, the two MOST important elements are, IMHO, where to start and where to end. #MGlitchat -9:12 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @kellybarnhill You are just freaking poetic tonight!! :-) #mglitchat -9:12 PM Dec 1st, 2011
rachelgrinti Sometimes the reveal has less impact than the journey. Some reveals should come sooner instead of being held back. #MGlitchat -9:12 PM Dec 1st, 2011
rachelgrinti Not that I have an example offhand. ;) But creating foreshadowing is a balance, not playing cards *too* closely to chest. #MGlitchat -9:13 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin It's important to give the reader clues--so they have the chance to work out the reveal. Esp. on 2nd reading. #mglitchat -9:14 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore So foreshadowing is a bit of a conscious AND subconscious effort. #mglitchat -9:14 PM Dec 1st, 2011
AniProf Being a part-time professional storyteller, I guage how to tell a story on the fly from audience reaction. #mglitchat -9:14 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes RT @KristineAsselin: It's important to give the reader clues--so they have the chance to work out the reveal. Esp. on 2nd reading. #mglitchat -9:14 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes Hi, I'm actually here tonight! #mglitchat -9:14 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz My question is: does foreshadowing need to be less subtle/more opaque for MG than YA (or for lower MG than upper MG)? #MGlitchat -9:15 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @JenniferCEstes Hi and welcome! #mglitchat -9:15 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KDuBayGillis @KristineAsselin I think WHEN YOU REACH ME is a good example of that. #mglitchat -9:15 PM Dec 1st, 2011
dianezahler Not sure I agree with this. RT @JoWhittemore: Implant the notion in the readers mind multiple times. #mglitchat -9:15 PM Dec 1st, 2011
AniProf The best, most successful stories are the ones where the audience has a strong hint of where you're going, ... #MGlitchat -9:15 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @JenniferCEstes YAY! Glad to see you here! #MGlitchat -9:15 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @elissacruz I think so. I tend to remind younger readers of events if I think they're important. #mglitchat -9:15 PM Dec 1st, 2011
AniProf ... and loves the psth you're taking them down. Same for writing, oui? #MGlitchat -9:16 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin @KDuBayGillis Yes! JK Rowling also is exceptional all through the HP series. Literally foreshadowing things books earlier. #mglitchat -9:16 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore But of course you avoid the all-out obvious: "I ran into Billy, who would later turn out to be the one who stole my bike." #mglitchat -9:17 PM Dec 1st, 2011
MrSchuReads RT @kellybarnhill: I tell my students this: a book is't a book. It is a conversation of whispers, nudges, clues. Foreshadowing is a kind of whisper. #mglitchat -9:17 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes @KristineAsselin One of my favorite parts about that series! #mglitchat @KDuBayGillis JK Rowling also is exc… (cont) http://t.co/vsrEOCSV -9:17 PM Dec 1st, 2011
SarahDarerLitt RT @kellybarnhill: I tell my students this: a book is't a book. It is a conversation of whispers, nudges, clues. Foreshadowing is a kind of whisper. #mglitchat -9:18 PM Dec 1st, 2011
rachelgrinti @AniProf Definitely some of the best stories are like this. #MGlitchat -9:18 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore Let's talk technique. Since we've established that foreshadowing is a bit conscious, how can we work it into a story? #mglitchat -9:18 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin @JenniferCEstes Me too! It makes rereading that much more fun--you can pick up the clues. #mglitchat -9:19 PM Dec 1st, 2011
kellybarnhill @JoWhittemore Oh, god yes. I was foreshadowing all over the place before I knew what my book was about. My subconscious knew. #mglitchat -9:19 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore A great foreshadowing technique can be tone, for example. If a story feels different with certain people in the picture... #mglitchat -9:19 PM Dec 1st, 2011
AniProf If your HINTS are too subtle, then the final reveal might feel like a magician's hand-waving. #MGlitchat -9:19 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes @JoWhittemore Well, first, you have to know where you're going. So, plotting, not pantsing, mostly, alas, alack. #mglitchat -9:19 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elliefalcone I worry that my foreshadowing isn't enough or worse, too much. #mglitchat -9:19 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KDuBayGillis @JoWhittemore I want to say via snippets of backstory, but clearly not the only way #mglitchat -9:19 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes @kellybarnhill Crud, you've just killed my theory! #mglitchat (I'm a plotter...) -9:20 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elliefalcone @JoWhittemore I like to plant little seeds along the way. #mglitchat -9:20 PM Dec 1st, 2011
CarolTanzman hi. go here late. isn't there a diff btw foreshadowing & set ups that end up paying off in plot? #mglitchat -9:20 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @KDuBayGillis Backstory is great technique. How can we know where the character's going if we don't know where they've been? #mglitchat -9:20 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @elliefalcone And how do you plant these seeds? Dialogue? Action? #mglitchat -9:21 PM Dec 1st, 2011
AniProf @JenniferCEstes @jowhittemore I disagree. Plotting everything does not work for all writers. Me? I make it up as I go along. #MGlitchat -9:21 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin @JoWhittemore I think a lot of foreshadowing can be added during revision. So pantsers and #Semipantser types can still play. :) #mglitchat -9:21 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes RT @JoWhittemore: @elliefalcone And how do you plant these seeds? Dialogue? Action? #mglitchat -9:21 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KDuBayGillis @AniProf I had this issue...not enough clues/whispers in early part of the story so later stuff seemed to come out of left field. #mglitchat -9:21 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @KristineAsselin Absolutely! #mglitchat -9:21 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes @KristineAsselin Yes! #mglitchat -9:22 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin All of this =>RT @JenniferCEstes: RT @JoWhittemore: @elliefalcone And how do you plant these seeds? Dialogue? Action? #mglitchat -9:22 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @CarolTanzman But even in setups, aren't you dropping hints to the reader? :-) #mglitchat -9:22 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @KristineAsselin I agree. Lots can be added/fixed/changed/removed in revision. Even foreshadowing. #MGlitchat -9:22 PM Dec 1st, 2011
dianezahler I think so. Foreshadowing is subtle hints abt future events.RT @CarolTanzman:isnt there a diff btw foreshadowing & set ups? #mglitchat -9:22 PM Dec 1st, 2011
rachelgrinti @JoWhittemore I think a mix of everything is most effective. Seeds from setting, other characters, dialogue. #MGlitchat -9:22 PM Dec 1st, 2011
kellybarnhill Foreshadowing, like memory, is associative. It operates in the language of images. We feel their importance without knowing why. #mglitchat -9:23 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes Sometimes, you don't know where you're going 'til the end, so adding bits of foreshadowing in revision makes sense. #mglitchat #pantser -9:23 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elliefalcone @JoWhittemore It could be in dialogue or something the characters notices but doesn't register on a deep level, etc. #mglitchat -9:23 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore Foreshadowing can totally be added in later. Sometimes, my editor asks, "This seems too sudden. Can you allude to this earlier?" #mglitchat -9:23 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz (For the record, I'm a revisionist. That means just about all my good writing happens during the revisions, not the 1st draft). #MGlitchat -9:23 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin Even something as small as a prop or something the MC handles can be foreshadowing. Hints in dialogue, environment, etc. #mglitchat -9:24 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes @elissacruz There's hope for me yet! #mglitchat -9:24 PM Dec 1st, 2011
CarolTanzman @JoWhittemore to me foreshadowing is mood-making... it's not if I don't set this up I get to end, it won't make sense. #mglitchat -9:24 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin Ooh, me too!! RT @elissacruz: I'm a revisionist. That means my good writing happens during the revisions, not the 1st draft). #mglitchat -9:24 PM Dec 1st, 2011
AniProf Come on, folks, there is no RECIPE for how to write, when to add foreshadowing, for example. There's simply the writing. #mglitchat -9:25 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elliefalcone Revision is your best friend. And, your worst enemy sometimes. #mglitchat -9:25 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KDuBayGillis @kellybarnhill Good point. This is a YA example, but ASHES does this well with loss/gain of a particular sense. #mglitchat -9:25 PM Dec 1st, 2011
kellybarnhill Fav foreshadowing teaching too: the train scene in Anna K. The moment arrests us. We feel her dying but we don't know it yet. #mglitchat -9:25 PM Dec 1st, 2011
rachelgrinti @JenniferCEstes Definitely. stories can change so much in revision even if you're a plotter. Revision is a good time to add it. #MGlitchat -9:25 PM Dec 1st, 2011
coachhays64 RT @kellybarnhill: Foreshadowing, like memory, is associative. It operates in the language of images. We feel their importance without knowing why. #mglitchat -9:25 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin @AniProf I disagree. I think anything can be learned--maybe not recipe, but certainly craft that you can get better at as you go. #mglitchat -9:26 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @AniProf You go with your gut and feel out what's best. #mglitchat -9:26 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes Yes. And, sigh. And, yes. RT @elliefalcone: Revision is your best friend. And, your worst enemy sometimes. #mglitchat -9:26 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elliefalcone @KristineAsselin What she just said. #mglitchat -9:27 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore So we foreshadow through tone, actions, dialogue...anything else? #mglitchat -9:27 PM Dec 1st, 2011
CarolTanzman yes RT @kellybarnhill: Foreshadowing is associative. It operates in the lang of images. We feel their imp w/out knowing why. #mglitchat -9:27 PM Dec 1st, 2011
kellybarnhill @AniProf @JenniferCEstes @jowhittemore Me too! Every time I try to outline, I just kill the book forever. #mglitchat -9:27 PM Dec 1st, 2011
AniProf @KristineAsselin Learned, yes, but through experience, through being engaged in the process. Your craft is what you practice. #mglitchat -9:27 PM Dec 1st, 2011
CarolTanzman sorry, guys. this is great convo but I gg. good night all. #mglitchat -9:27 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @CarolTanzman Thanks for popping by! #mglitchat -9:28 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin Yes! RT @AniProf: Learned, yes, but through experience, through being engaged in the process. Your craft is what you practice. #mglitchat -9:28 PM Dec 1st, 2011
rachelgrinti So Ashes, Anna K, Harry Potter mentioned earlier. What MG books have you read that are examples of good foreshadowing? #MGlitchat -9:29 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes @KDuBayGillis mentioned When You Reach Me #mglitchat -9:29 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elliefalcone I thought Love, Aubrey had good foreshadowing. #mglitchat -9:30 PM Dec 1st, 2011
dianezahler @JoWhittemore Images, symbols. #mglitchat -9:30 PM Dec 1st, 2011
coachhays64 @kellybarnhill Love that description! Almost a feeling of "I knew that was going to happen, but don't know exactly how I knew." #mglitchat -9:30 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin What about through rhetorical devices and use of language? You weave foreshadowing into story that way as well. No good example. #mglitchat -9:30 PM Dec 1st, 2011
kellybarnhill Ah, #mglitchat, I wish I could stick around. Unfortunately, there is a seven year old who wants another Louis Sachar chapter read to him. -9:30 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes @KristineAsselin BUT I NEED GOOD EXAMPLES! #mglitchat -9:30 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @rachelgrinti Yes, I'd love more concrete examples of good foreshadowing in MG books. #MGlitchat -9:30 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin Someone mentioned When You Reach Me. #mglitchat -9:31 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin @JenniferCEstes Sorry. :( I'm awful at coming up with good examples... #mglitchat -9:31 PM Dec 1st, 2011
rachelgrinti @KristineAsselin I can't believe I still haven't read that one. #MGlitchat -9:31 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes When does foreshadowing stop being foreshadowing, and become straight mystery? #mglitchat -9:31 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin @rachelgrinti You HAVE to ! It's amazing. :) #mglitchat -9:32 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @elissacruz @rachelgrinti I think you can go as simple as Mixed-Up Files for foreshadowing with character personality alone. #mglitchat -9:32 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @elissacruz @rachelgrinti That...and the "Oh, baloney"/Bologna, Italy reference. :-) #mglitchat -9:33 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin Anyone read Linda Buckley Archer's THE TIME TRAVELERS? I think she has some some good examples of foreshadowing. #OneOfMyFaves #mglitchat -9:33 PM Dec 1st, 2011
AniProf Example? Though not a book, how about the film, The Sixth Sense? #mglitchat -9:33 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @JenniferCEstes Good question. I write mysteries, so I tend to shy away from foreshadowing so I don't give away the mystery. #MGlitchat -9:33 PM Dec 1st, 2011
rachelgrinti @JenniferCEstes Maybe when there is a clear unknown to be solved? Whereas foreshadowing you may not know you're being led. #MGlitchat -9:33 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore And the Lemony Snicket books always have good foreshadowing. #mglitchat -9:33 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes @elissacruz This is my current conundrum... #mglitchat -9:34 PM Dec 1st, 2011
kellybarnhill @JenniferCEstes Okay, I can think of a few (before I go) HOLES, for one. HOWL'S MOVING CASTLE for another. And THE WEE FREE MEN. #mglitchat -9:34 PM Dec 1st, 2011
kellybarnhill @KristineAsselin Yes. FANTASTIC book! #mglitchat -9:34 PM Dec 1st, 2011
WriterRoss Kate Messner, SUGAR AND ICE: subtly drops hints from onset that Claire's fellow ice skating students aren't all on up-and-up. #MGlitchat -9:34 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes @rachelgrinti I think the best writing combines the two, the clear unknown to be solved AND the subtle foreshadowing. #mglitchat -9:35 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin Need foreshadowing even in mystery, right? Just so things don't come out of the blue? Hard to do without giving away the end. #mglitchat -9:35 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KDuBayGillis @kellybarnhill @JenniferCEstes HOLES, yes! (My tweets with this aren't showing up) #mglitchat -9:35 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @JenniferCEstes But yet I do try to hide those clues in plain sight so readers can say "Duh, I knew that!" at the end. #MGlitchat -9:35 PM Dec 1st, 2011
WriterRoss But to answer the earlier point, it's not a mystery we're solving. The holes help character learn who to trust & what to trust. #MGlitchat -9:36 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KateMilford @KDuBayGillis @rachelgrinti Shoot! I lost track of time! I'm here. #mglitchat -9:36 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes @KDuBayGillis Yes -- HOLES. The film, SEVEN, however, seems more straight mystery w/clue dropping? #mglitchat -9:36 PM Dec 1st, 2011
rachelgrinti @KateMilford Glad you made it! #MGlitchat -9:36 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore And of course you can't forget those red herrings...foreshadowing to throw you off. #mglitchat -9:37 PM Dec 1st, 2011
AniProf Foreshadowing in a mystery can be done. Just add facts along the way, like breadcrumbs, and see if the mice follow. #mglitchat -9:37 PM Dec 1st, 2011
themattlondon Hey all #mglitchat people! I'm an mg author just landed an agent last month. This is my first #mglitchat! -9:37 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes OMG, gotta have red herrings! RT @JoWhittemore: of course you can't forget those red herrings...foreshadowing to throw you off. #mglitchat -9:37 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elliefalcone Are red herrings frowned upon? #mglitchat -9:37 PM Dec 1st, 2011
rachelgrinti @themattlondon Hello, welcome! #MGlitchat -9:37 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KDuBayGillis @elissacruz @rachelgrinti Also @AaronStarmer's THE ONLY ONES has a lot of great foreshadowing #mglitchat -9:37 PM Dec 1st, 2011
rachelgrinti Just a general thanks for all of the recommendations! Jotting down titles! #MGlitchat -9:38 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @themattlondon Welcome, welcome! #mglitchat -9:38 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes @elliefalcone Are they? I remember once I learned what they were, loving to figure them out. #mglitchat -9:38 PM Dec 1st, 2011
AniProf Of course! @JoWhittemore: of course you can't forget those red herrings...foreshadowing to throw you off. #mglitchat -9:38 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @JoWhittemore Okay, NOW you are talking my language! If you'd said "clues" and "red herrings" first, I'd have been good to go. ;) #MGlitchat -9:39 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @elliefalcone I think they're essential for plot twists. You can't make it too easy. #mglitchat -9:39 PM Dec 1st, 2011
deegarretson @themattlondon Hi Matt! I'm just lurking on the chat tonight, but wanted to say welcome! #mglitchat -9:39 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @themattlondon Welcome! Glad to have another MGlitchatter! #MGlitchat -9:40 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes @elissacruz *nodding head vigorously* #mglitchat -9:40 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore Red herrings are devices meant to throw the reader off what's really important. I don't think they can be helped. #mglitchat -9:40 PM Dec 1st, 2011
WriterRoss Tweet chat crawling. Not sure if I'm in room. Red herrings reek. <g> That seems more mystery genre to me. Foreshadowing more deft #MGlitchat -9:40 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KDuBayGillis @rachelgrinti @KateMilford Was trying to say BONESHAKER has great foreshadowing (the gloves!) but left off #mglitchat -9:41 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore Maybe we should rename red herrings. Like...fauxshadowing. :-) #mglitchat -9:41 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes @WriterRoss That's what I was wondering earlier, difference between foreshadowing and straight mystery clues. #mglitchat -9:41 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes Genius! RT @JoWhittemore: Maybe we should rename red herrings. Like...fauxshadowing. :-) #mglitchat -9:41 PM Dec 1st, 2011
rachelgrinti Haha! RT @JoWhittemore: Maybe we should rename red herrings. Like...fauxshadowing. :-) #mglitchat -9:42 PM Dec 1st, 2011
teacher6th "Noah Zarc is a story that can be read over and over again!" Hear more at http://t.co/nXVZ2Gut #kidlitchat #NoahZarc #MGlitchat #scifi -9:42 PM Dec 1st, 2011
WriterRoss @JoWhittemore Hah! How about RougeShadowing? <g> #MGlitchat -9:42 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KateMilford @KDuBayGillis Hey, thanks! That's one of the fun parts, figuring out which puzzle pieces to leave out. #mglitchat -9:42 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz Love it! -->RT @JoWhittemore: Maybe we should rename red herrings. Like...fauxshadowing. :-) #MGlitchat -9:43 PM Dec 1st, 2011
WriterRoss @JenniferCEstes I'm alive. Thank you for letting me know. {} #MGlitchat -9:43 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes @WriterRoss Happy to help! :) #mglitchat -9:43 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @WriterRoss Nice. :-) #mglitchat -9:44 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore I think the main difference between foreshadowing and a setup is the subtlety. With a setup, you KNOW something's coming. #mglitchat -9:45 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KDuBayGillis RT @JoWhittemore: I think the main difference between foreshadowing and a setup is the subtlety. With a setup, you KNOW something's coming. #mglitchat -9:45 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes @JoWhittemore With foreshadowing, you may not know until the end when you smack your forehead and say AHA! #mglitchat -9:46 PM Dec 1st, 2011
WriterRoss @JoWhittemore Good point. Red herrings are there for the picking but if you miss it, you miss the point -- and shadows. {} #MGlitchat -9:46 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore Write the text and then add the subtext! RT @sarazarr: @JoWhittemore yeah, foreshadowing is def a second draft thing for me. #mglitchat -9:47 PM Dec 1st, 2011
deegarretson Sorry this is offtopic but I'm working on list of debut2011 MG authors so people can support them.If you know any, pl let me know #mglitchat -9:48 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes Then, reread, for the satisfaction of finding those moments of foreshadowing you missed the 1st time 'cause they were so clever. #mglitchat -9:48 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes RT @JoWhittemore: Write the text and then add the subtext! RT @sarazarr: @JoWhittemore yeah, foreshadowing is def a second draft thing for me. #mglitchat -9:48 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @JenniferCEstes Oh, good. I'm not the only person who does that! #mglitchat -9:49 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @JenniferCEstes There's always that "What the...how did I miss that?" moment where I flip back through. #mglitchat -9:49 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes Me too! RT @JoWhittemore: @JenniferCEstes There's always that "What the...how did I miss that?" moment where I flip back through. #mglitchat -9:50 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz The best foreshadowing is insignificant on the surface, but takes on deeper meaning when you've reached the end of the story. #MGlitchat -9:50 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KDuBayGillis @JoWhittemore Foreshadowing is a challenge w/o a good CP (as is all of writing in general...) Need to know if too much/too subtle #mglitchat -9:50 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes RT @KDuBayGillis: @JoWhittemore Foreshadowing is a challenge w/o a good CP (as is all of writing in general...) Need to know if too much/too subtle #mglitchat -9:50 PM Dec 1st, 2011
WriterRoss @JenniferCEstes I love re-reading my own mss to find moments of foreshadowing I didn't even realize I dropped in to the story. #MGlitchat -9:50 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore Yes, this-->RT @elissacruz: The best foreshadowing is insignificant on the surface. Takes on deeper meaning at end of the story. #mglitchat -9:51 PM Dec 1st, 2011
WriterRoss @KDuBayGillis (Help. I came in late. CP means...? Thanks.) #MGlitchat -9:51 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KateMilford @elissacruz That is beautifully put. #mglitchat -9:51 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin Sign of a great book! RT @JenniferCEstes: Reread for satisfaction of finding clever moments of foreshadowing you missed 1st time. #mglitchat -9:51 PM Dec 1st, 2011
rachelgrinti @JoWhittemore Maybe I have trouble with writing foreshadowing because I'm a super dense reader. I miss the obvious so often ha! #MGlitchat -9:51 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @KDuBayGillis Agreed. A good critique partner is crucial to see if all those little hints hit or miss. #mglitchat -9:52 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes Yes! RT @KDuBayGillis: Foreshadowing is a challenge w/o good CP (as is writing in general.) Need to know if too much/too subtle #mglitchat -9:52 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KDuBayGillis @WriterRoss oh sorry, critique partner #mglitchat -9:52 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @KateMilford Thank you! I may understand this whole foreshadowing thing yet! #MGlitchat -9:53 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KDuBayGillis RT @JoWhittemore: Yes, this-->RT @elissacruz: The best foreshadowing is insignificant on the surface. Takes on deeper meaning at end of the story. #mglitchat -9:53 PM Dec 1st, 2011
jjhoutman #mglitchat I'm late but I made it! -9:53 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @rachelgrinti Haha! Yes, you need to be more shallow! :-) #mglitchat -9:53 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes @elissacruz I think it's doubly hard for those of us working on mysteries! #mglitchat -9:53 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @jjhoutman Welcome! #MGlitchat -9:53 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @jjhoutman Better late than never! :-) #mglitchat -9:54 PM Dec 1st, 2011
WriterRoss @KDuBayGillis Ah! That makes sense. I was heading toward "character potholes" (in light of tonight's chat topic)... :> #MGlitchat -9:54 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @JenniferCEstes I agree. But I do think that clues and red-herrings really are the mystery version of foreshadowing. #MGlitchat -9:54 PM Dec 1st, 2011
rachelgrinti @JoWhittemore Hah I mean dense as in thick headed but thanks! #MGlitchat -9:54 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes @WriterRoss Re: rereading my own mss. I'm not sure I'm that clever in my first drafts! LOL. #mglitchat -9:54 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes @elissacruz Same thing, different terms? #mglitchat -9:54 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @rachelgrinti Ohhhh. HA! Now I'm the dense one. #mglitchat -9:54 PM Dec 1st, 2011
jjhoutman I like to add foreshadowing before the "initiating event" so that when we see it later, the reaction is different #mglitchat -9:55 PM Dec 1st, 2011
ktubb Hey! Is #mglitchat still going on? If so, hi! :) -9:55 PM Dec 1st, 2011
jjhoutman RT @elissacruz: The best foreshadowing is insignificant on the surface, but takes on deeper meaning when you've reached the end of the story. #MGlitchat -9:55 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @jjhoutman The initiating event? Explain, please! :-) #mglitchat -9:55 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @ktubb Hi, KTubb! #mglitchat -9:55 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @JenniferCEstes Maybe. It's sorta like the mystery genre has a built-in foreshadowing system. ;) #MGlitchat -9:55 PM Dec 1st, 2011
rachelgrinti @ktubb Hello! #MGlitchat -9:56 PM Dec 1st, 2011
themattlondon Thanks for the warm welcome #mglitchat ! -9:56 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @ktubb Welcome! We're here for a few more minutes, anyway. :) #MGlitchat -9:56 PM Dec 1st, 2011
WriterRoss @JenniferCEstes I'm always shocked when I discover I wrote something that feels intentionally brilliant. ;> #MGlitchat -9:56 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes Lucky us! RT @elissacruz: @JenniferCEstes Maybe. It's sorta like the mystery genre has a built-in foreshadowing system. ;) #MGlitchat -9:56 PM Dec 1st, 2011
ktubb @JoWhittemore Yay, it is! Hi, Jo! :) #mglitchat -9:57 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elliefalcone Me too. RT @WriterRoss I'm always shocked when I discover I wrote something that feels intentionally brilliant. ;> #mglitchat -9:57 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin @WriterRoss I feel that way a lot when I reread my own MS. ;) Like WOW, I wrote that? #mglitchat -9:57 PM Dec 1st, 2011
ktubb @rachelgrinti @elissacruz Hi! :) #mglitchat -9:57 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @ktubb Any thoughts on foreshadowing technique, favorite examples in books, etc? #mglitchat -9:57 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes @KristineAsselin @WriterRoss YES! #mglitchat Love that moment! #mglitchat -9:58 PM Dec 1st, 2011
jjhoutman @JoWhittemore The initiating event is what starts protag on the journey, which will result in a change in protag #mglitchat -9:58 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes I was so excited I just double #mglitchat -ted there.... -9:58 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @jjhoutman Ahhh. Gotcha! #mglitchat -9:59 PM Dec 1st, 2011
ktubb Heard a great quote from the Killer Nashville writing conference, seems to apply: every story is a mystery. #mglitchat -9:59 PM Dec 1st, 2011
jjhoutman RT @WriterRoss: @JenniferCEstes I'm always shocked when I discover I wrote something that feels intentionally brilliant. ;> #MGlitchat -9:59 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @KristineAsselin Me too. Though sometimes it's "Wow. I wrote THAT?" ha ha ha #MGlitchat -9:59 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore @ktubb I like that. :-) #mglitchat -10:00 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin @elissacruz HAHA, there's that too. :) #mglitchat -10:00 PM Dec 1st, 2011
WriterRoss Welcome to chat, Matt. You left off 1 or 2 #MGlitchat after a comment so it didn't go to group. Congrats on getting an agent! #MGlitchat -10:00 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elliefalcone Well, good night folks. I'm turning into a pumpkin. #mglitchat -10:00 PM Dec 1st, 2011
themattlondon It sounds like there is a #mglitchat consensus that foreshadowing is a technique for 2nd drafts and later. -10:01 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @ktubb Yes. I say that all the time! Though I suppose that's OT. Sorry, foreshadowing topic. #MGlitchat -10:01 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JenniferCEstes All right, folks, I'm heading out. Thanks for a lively chat w/great info -- as usual! Cheers! #mglitchat -10:01 PM Dec 1st, 2011
KristineAsselin G'Night all. I'm out too. Nice chat tonight. As always, thanks to the moderators! You guys rock! #mglitchat -10:02 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @themattlondon I think it depends on if you are a plotter, a pantser, or semipantser. Plotters might get it in a 1st draft. #MGlitchat -10:02 PM Dec 1st, 2011
ktubb @JoWhittemore Great question! Hmmm...foreshadowing leads to the unpredictable obvious...*puts on thinking cap for examples* #mglitchat -10:02 PM Dec 1st, 2011
rachelgrinti Thank you all for a fun chat tonight #MGlitchat -10:02 PM Dec 1st, 2011
WriterRoss @themattlondon Think it can be intentional but like any artist, sometimes we don't realize what's there or not until we step back #MGlitchat -10:03 PM Dec 1st, 2011
elissacruz @themattlondon But we pantsers are lucky if we get a coherent plot or character out of the 1st draft! ;) #MGlitchat -10:03 PM Dec 1st, 2011
JoWhittemore Nice!! RT @ktubb: Foreshadowing leads to the unpredictable obvious... #mglitchat -10:03 PM Dec 1st, 2011
themattlondon Whoops! Hashtag fail on #mglitchat . Sorry! I'm new at this. -10:03 PM Dec 1st, 2011
ktubb @elissacruz Oh, oops! Saw a mention of mysteries... *switches gears* ;) #mglitchat -10:03 PM Dec 1st, 2011
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